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Alternate to our optional!A subreddit for fans of BioWare's 2003 RPG Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, and Obsidian Entertainment's 2004 sequel, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.For fans of BioWare's 2011 MMORPG Star Wars: The Old Republic, please see. Remember. This includes always being cordial, and ensuring you don't downvote other users' posts based on the opinions expressed in them. No off-topic content. This includes content which is only related to KOTOR in a very vague or tangential way.
No spamming or trolling. This includes posts made by 'novelty accounts' (inc. Unhelpful or off-topic bot accounts) which do not contribute to discussion.
No low-content posts. This includes most memes and image macros (these belong in ). If you're not sure if it's low-content, think about whether it can generate any meaningful discussion.
For discussion-based submissions, OPs are required to begin the discussion, rather than posting an open-ended question without any of their own thoughts. Be mindful of spoilers. Make sure not to include any spoilers in thread titles; to flair submitted content with the spoiler tag if it applies; and to responsibly spoiler-tag text when posting in a thread where the OP may have not yet beaten the games. No reposts of content posted within the last two months, nor of the top 100 posts in the sub (all-time). Some highly-similar post types which are made too frequently might also fall under this rule, but enforcement will always be just friendly reminders.For more details on particulars and enforcement, please see Spoiler TagsReddit now has sitewide support for spoiler tags in comments, and a flairing system for threads that may contain spoilers. They're easy to use, and our rules require that you utilize comment spoiler tags in any thread where the OP may not have beaten the games, or in instances where the thread or OP specifically asks for the thread to be clear of spoilers.
The method is quite simple: !This is how you write it! Atton's fine, he's actually designed to 100% with you no matter what you do. He'll be influenced by you whether you go light side or dark side; he's sort of the tutorial character for influence in that sense. The only way I think you can actually lose influence with him is by insulting him.The ones you want to watch out for losing influence with via actions, on a DS playthrough, are Visas, Mira, Mical, T3-M4, Handmaiden, and Bao-Dur.
The good news is that all of those characters except for Bao-Dur can be brought to 100% influence just with conversations, so you can get them to 100% before you ever take them with you, thereby getting you all their dialogue, exp., and other events before you have a chance to fuck them up by doing DS influence around them. For Bao-Dur, though, he's one of the hardest people to find influence events out in the worlds for and he barely gets influenced at all by conversations, so you really need to make sure you don't do anything DS around him until you get him 100%. Yeah, I tried playing the old republic mmo. Seemed like a rehash of WoW, and i was hoping for something more than what it was. I ended up disappointed and short $15. I mean yeah, the lore would be cool and all that but I just couldn't really get into it. To each his own thoughAnother thing I just realized, I don't like playing through these stories making decisions that I wouldn't normally make, just based off of unlocking a specific dialogue, or being able to use a specific power.
It just feels sort of unnatural and kinda kills it for me. They tried to start out less like WoW, but then the playerbase wanted WoW, so they gave people more WoW. Part of the problem here is that you're expecting something that is not an MMO. You're expecting KOTOR 3.
For an MMO, TOR is amazing and constantly gaining content for free. As a KOTOR game, it falls short, yes, but KOTOR style gameplay and depth is just not something that can be done (well) in an MMO.My rambling isn't terribly organized, sorry. I hope the point came across well enough though.
. WW: July 21, 2015Mode(s)Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords is a developed by and published. It is the sequel to 's and was released for the on December 6, 2004, for on February 8, 2005, and and on July 21, 2015. Like its predecessor, it is set in the universe 4,000 years before the events of the film and is based on the developed. The game uses the, which was originally used in Knights of the Old Republic. The plot first started being written before the original Knights of the Old Republic was released, and development began in October 2003, after BioWare offered Obsidian their Star Wars license due to being confident in their previous work.Knights of the Old Republic II starts five years after the events of the first game and follows the story of The Exile, a who was exiled from the Jedi Order. During this time, the Jedi Order has been almost completely wiped out by the.
The game begins with the protagonist waking up from unconsciousness on an facility. After he or she escapes with the help of their party members, they find the person who exiled them ten years ago, who sends the protagonist on a mission to seek out the remaining Jedi to fight against the Sith.The game's critical reception upon its release was generally positive; praise was given to the story, characters, and writing, which were noted to be more grey than the original Knights of the Old Republic. Particular praise was given to one of the game's party members, with naming her the best video game character of 2005. However, the game received criticism for being too similar to its predecessor in terms of graphics and gameplay systems. The game was included in the book. Screenshot from the first level of the game illustrating the interface and combat system.Knights of the Old Republic II is a played from a that features combat.
Combat and interactions with the environment and in Knights of the Old Republic II are based on the as in. The game starts with a character creation screen with several choices to make, and there is also an option of letting the game do it automatically. There are 30 new powers, which are manifestations of the Force, in Knights of the Old Republic II. Like its predecessor, the game has several, including swoop bike racing and a card game called Pazaak.
The interface has been streamlined from the original game and party management has been made easier; for example, the player can switch between two selected weapon sets in the menu. As in the first game, the player can choose to align with either the light side or the dark side. Choosing dialogue options that are respectful and empathetic gives the protagonist light side points, while options that are egotistic and evil result in dark side points.The combat of Knights of the Old Republic II is identical to its predecessor. Several new forms were added to the game.
Each of them is useful for a different situation. For example, one is best for enemies using blaster weapons, while another would be good for recovering from using Force powers.
The player can use a variety of melee and ranged weapons, including swords and firearms. Fighting unarmed is also an option. A new addition to the game is 'prestige classes', add-ons to the Jedi classes that were established in Knights of the Old Republic.
They allow the player character to practice in lightsaber combat or Force powers, depending on player choice.The player can travel with up to two party members at a time, which gain at the same rate as the player character. Equipment and perks for party characters can be selected for different statistical effects or abilities.
Players can corpses and various environmental objects. The protagonist also has the ability to 'influence' their party members; by doing things that impress them, the player increases their influence with them. Depending on the level of influence, party members may support the player character unconditionally or turn against the protagonist. The player can also exploit high influence by drawing party members to either the light side or the dark side, and some characters can even be trained to use the Force.
Synopsis Setting The game takes place five years after the events of Knights of the Old Republic and 4,000 years before, in a time when the have been nearly exterminated by the. The player's character, a former Jedi Knight exiled from the Jedi Order, is referred to as 'The Exile' or 'Jedi Exile'. Throughout the game, the Exile restores their connection to the Force while, with the help of non-playable companions, setting out to stop the Sith. The player makes choices that turn the Exile to either the light side or the dark side of the Force, and they travel to six planets to either help or hinder the Republic's efforts to bring peace and stability to the galaxy.New playable locations in Knights of the Old Republic II include Telos IV, Onderon and its moon Dxun, Nar Shaddaa, Malachor V, the Peragus Mining Facility, and various starships such as the hijacked Republic cruiser Harbinger, the Sith cruiser Ravager, and Goto's yacht orbiting Nar Shaddaa. Two planets featured in the original game, Korriban and, are revisited, both with ravaged buildings and intensified problems. The, the main character's ship in the first game, is also the player's transportation in Knights of the Old Republic II.
Characters The Exile's backstory reveals that the character served under during the Mandalorian Wars and ordered the activation of a devastating weapon in the climactic battle over Malachor V. The deaths that ensued created such a substantial 'wound' in that the character was forced to sever their connection to the Force to survive, and the Jedi Council ordered the character exiled from the Jedi Order. As the game progresses, the Jedi Exile rebuilds a connection to the Force and creates unusually strong Force Bonds with other characters and places, while unknowingly sapping Force powers.Among the characters who join the Jedi Exile are, who acts as the Exile's mentor; pilot and former Sith; technician and Mandalorian War veteran and his droid remote; the criminal droid; and the Sith apprentice. And (now identified as '), both featured in the first game, also join the Exile's team. Other characters join the Exile's party under certain conditions., who appears in the first game, joins the quest if the Exile collects and uses the parts necessary to reactivate him.
Depending on the player's alignment, the Exile will either be joined by the (light side or neutral) or by her rival, a bounty hunter known as (dark side). Depending on the player's gender (canonically female), the Exile will either be joined by Mical the Disciple (female) or Brianna the (male).The game features three main antagonists: Darth Traya, a mysterious assailant who remains in the dark through most of the game;, an undead Sith Lord with a murderous hatred for Jedi; and, a Sith Lord whose physical being was destroyed due to his immense affinity to the Force. Plot While hiding on the Harbinger, a Republic cruiser, the Exile is sedated by HK-50, an assassin droid, to be delivered to a crime syndicate called the Exchange, who have put out a bounty on live Jedi. The Exile is rescued by Kreia, with whom the Exile forms a Force Bond with, and the droid T3-M4 on the Ebon Hawk, and the three flee the Harbinger as it is hijacked by a squad of Sith assassins. However, their ship is damaged during the escape by the Harbinger 's gunfire, and they eventually arrive at the Peragus Mining Facility.
Teaming up with smuggler Atton Rand, the group escapes to the planet Telos IV. While hiding out on Telos, they encounter Atris, a surviving member of the Jedi Council who sentenced the protagonist to exile ten years prior. After settling a dispute regarding the Exile's past sentence, Atris forms an uneasy alliance with them, instructing them to seek out other surviving Jedi in order to rally against the Sith. The Exile then travels to four worlds to find reclusive Jedi Masters and either beg for their aid or kill them in revenge for being exiled, depending on player choice. As the Exile continues their journey, they are joined by several individuals in their quest.After finding all the Masters, the Exile travels back to and learns that the countless deaths at Malachor V resulted in the Exile unconsciously giving up their connection to the Force, which then became the teachings of the new Sith.
If the player aided the Jedi Masters, they prepare to strip the Exile of their Force connection permanently, as the Masters fear that these teachings could result in the actual death of the Force, but Kreia reveals herself to be the former leader of the Sith and murders them all in retribution. If the player killed the Jedi Masters, Kreia attacks the Exile and leaves. Tracking Kreia to Telos, the Exile fights and defeats a corrupted Atris, from whom it is learned that Kreia plans to strengthen a massive wound in the Force made ten years prior.
This wound had been created by the Exile during the Mandalorian Wars, when they activated a superweapon in order to end the battle on the planet Malachor V, causing mass death and destruction. Before following her to Malachor V, where Kreia had since rejoined the Sith as Darth Traya, the Exile stops a Sith invasion of Telos, defeating one of Traya's former apprentices, the Sith Lord Darth Nihilus. On Malachor V, the Exile is separated from their companions and fights through hordes of monsters on the planet's surface and the inhabitants of a large Sith Academy that survived the cataclysm. On the final floor of the academy, the Exile kills the Sith Lord Darth Sion and confronts Darth Traya in the planet's core.The Exile defeats the Sith Lord, but before Traya dies, she delivers a prophetic vision of the future pertaining to the player's companions and the worlds that were visited over the course of the story. Depending on the Exile's alignment, they either order the destruction of Malachor V, escaping before it is destroyed, and travel into the Unknown Regions in search of Revan (light side), or remain on Malachor V as the new Dark Lord of the Sith (dark side). Development. ( pictured) was the of Knights of the Old Republic II.Knights of the Old Republic II was developed by and published.
It is the sequel to 's Knights of the Old Republic, and it uses the same as the original game. BioWare suggested that Obsidian should be offered the Knights of the Old Republic license due to their familiarity with Obsidian's past work and the good relationship between the two developers, as well as due to finding LucasArts' development schedule for the sequel to be too tight.
The game was released in and versions, but due to the Xbox version being released two months prior to the PC version, it has multiple unfixed bugs.Development of the game began in October 2003. The overview of the game's story was originally drafted before the first Knights of the Old Republic was released, after which it saw many revisions and also some major redrafts. In preparation to write Knights of the Old Republic II, lead designer tried to learn as much about the universe as possible. He read many books, guides, modules, and graphic novels, and the Obsidian team also relied on the first Knights of the Old Republic and the original Star Wars films for inspiration. Avellone said that Obsidian recognized one of the things that made Knights of the Old Republic great was the story and the companions, and that they tried to expand upon this by adding more depth to them.Knights of the Old Republic II uses the same as the first Knights of the Old Republic with some changes, and the level cap has also been removed. For the most part, the team didn't want to redo any of the design elements from the first game, as they felt that there was no need to change anything that had already proved successful; instead, they opted to look for areas that could be improved and expanded upon them in a way that retained the base style of Knights of the Old Republic.
Obsidian put much work into the game's graphics, including the appearances of non-player characters. Other technological improvements include the lighting and weather effects, in addition to increasing the level sizes. Knights of the Old Republic II 's lead artist was Aaron Meyers; he decided which people would join the art team after looking through 'tons of applications, resumes, and demo reels', and he said that he was pleased with the number of people who wanted to work for Obsidian.
Meyers also complained about the short deadline the development team had to deal with. Obsidian's, Chris Parker, said that the schedule set for the development team was 'extremely aggressive', and that the team felt a lot of pressure because they were 'making a sequel to the for 2003'.For the music, the development team felt that symphony orchestra would work best for Knights of the Old Republic II. The musical score was composed by, who developed music and themes for characters and places, including the Jedi's theme, 's theme and 's theme (which both have many similarities with the Emperor's theme from The Return of the Jedi). He also created a theme for the main character, which is heard occasionally when he or she experiences internal conflict.
The 55-minute score was recorded by the Sinfonia Orchestra in. The opening crawl utilizes the version of ' main Star Wars theme that was re-recorded for the prequel trilogy.When Obsidian was preparing to present Knights of the Old Republic II at, they tried to fit as much information as they could, saying that it would need to be a duration of 30 minutes as it was the only E3 event it would be showcased at; however, due to the limited time frame, they would have to cut it down to a five- to ten-minute presentation. During this time, none of the Obsidian designed were ready to be shown, so they picked three levels and put them through a schedule to finish them on time. The was finished a few days before the event, and the game was presented in May 2004. The first for Knights of the Old Republic II was later unveiled in July 2004, and the official website was launched in October.When looking back at Knights of the Old Republic II in a 2013 interview, Avellone said that because of LucasArts forcing Obsidian to finish the game in a short time frame of 14 to 16 months, the game ended up being in an 'unfinished' state.
However, Avellone said that Obsidian was at fault for this due to not cutting out enough things; he noted that all minigames should have been removed, and also said that there were too many in-engine. Obsidian's co-founder, said that the game was originally going to be released in 2005, but it was later moved up to December 2004 after E3; according to him, Obsidian had to choose between 'getting in trouble or getting it done'. Due to this, several cuts had to be made; one of the most major was the droid planet M4-78, which was entirely removed from the game after the 2004 E3 event when the team realized that they wouldn't be able to fit it into the schedule. M4-78's designer, explained that he moved assets from that planet to Nar Shaddaa's yacht level in order to complete it on time, which was prior also likely to be cut from the game.The Xbox version of Knights of the Old Republic II went on November 23, 2004; it was later released on December 6, 2004 in the United States, and the PC version was released on February 8, 2005. In Europe, the game was released simultaneously for both platforms on February 11. The game was later re-released in August 2012 on the platform, and in January 2015 on.
On July 21, 2015, and versions were released along with new support for and other Steamworks features, input, and modern resolutions up to. For the was announced in April 2018.Along with several official, a by a community fixed around 500 remaining, along with restoring most of the content that was cut from the game. There were also methods found by the community for improving compatibility on modern PC operating systems.
Reception Commercial performance According to, Knights of the Old Republic II sold 458,000 copies in North America during the month of December 2004. It entered their chart for the month at number 11, and at number 3 on the Xbox-only chart.
After its North American release on Windows, it debuted at number 2 on the PC chart for the month of February. In the United Kingdom, the game debuted at the top of the weekly chart, beating 's much-anticipated online game, which was released in the same week. Eurogamer reported that in the UK Knights of the Old Republic II sold much more in its first week than the first game, which the website speculates was helped by the former's simultaneous release on Windows and Xbox in PAL regions, as opposed to the latter's initial Xbox-only release. During 2005 alone, the Xbox version sold more than 60,000 copies in the region.By early 2006, Knights of the Old Republic II had sold almost 1.5 million copies. Its sales in the United States alone reached 1.275 million by 2008. Critical reception ReceptionReview scoresPublicationScoreB90/1008/104.5/54.5/58.5/108.5/104/5GameZone8.9/109.3/108.7/109.3/10Aggregate scores86%6/100Knights of the Old Republic II was met with positive reception upon its release; on, it has an score of 85/100 and 86/100 on the PC and Xbox versions respectively, indicating 'generally favorable reviews' according to the site.
Said that there is a bulk of pressure involved with developing the sequel to a game from a different developer which won several ' awards, and that Obsidian delivered. The review also said that it won't disappoint fans of the original game and that it is mostly similar to it in terms of the model. Praised both the first and second Knights of the Old Republic and said that the second game continues the series' tradition of not fixing what is not broken.
Echoed this statement, also saying that both the good things and the shortcomings from the first game are present in Knights of the Old Republic II.compared the game to from the original film trilogy in that it is the best of the series in terms of story, and also said that the game has the best story in a video game since. Wrote that Obsidian surpassed the original Knights of the Old Republic in terms of the writing, saying that the plot is more consistent, the dialogue is edgier and the moral choices are more significant; agreed, writing, 'your decision making, as you pursue a light or dark path, is more ambiguous, with more unexpected consequences'.
Said that compared to the original game, Knights of the Old Republic II 's plot is 'far more grey'. The review also said that planets are 'better developed and paced'. GameZone wrote that the game is a 'Must Buy' for people who like well-written characters and story.The combat was generally well-received, with some reviewers noting that it is mostly unchanged from the original Knights of the Old Republic. GameSpot compared the combat from the first Knights of the Old Republic to the second, saying that it isn't well-balanced in both; however, the reviewer wrote that it helps the combat remain spontaneous.
GameZone said that the combat is not changed from the first Knights of the Old Republic to the second, but that this is a good thing since the combat in the original was enjoyable. IGN praised the game's, saying that it is easy to control the main character alone without controlling the party members. GameSpy's reviewer, on the other hand, said that he encountered problems with the combat AI that were not present in the original Knights of the Old Republic.GameSpot criticized Knights of the Old Republic II 's graphics, calling them 'lackluster'. GameSpy's reviewer felt that the game's graphics were disappointing, calling them 'a little dated' and 'half-baked'.
The reviewer further criticized the graphics for looking the same as they were in the first game of the series, saying that they could only be considered 'good' during the release of that game. GameZone said that the game looks exactly the same as the original Knights of the Old Republic and that it doesn't compare to the majority of mainstream games released at the time. GameSpy called the music in the game 'excellent'; however, the reviewer noted that some of it is re-used from the first game of the series. The GameSpy reviewer also said that while the majority of the voice-acting is good, there are 'a few more examples of bad voice-acting' than in the first Knights of the Old Republic. GameZone said that the 'top-notch' voice acting complements the game's very well-written dialogue, and also praised the game's sound effects.The game was criticized for its; several players reported having problems with bugs. 1UP.com's reviewer condemned Knights of the Old Republic II for having the same bugs and technical issues as in the first game, saying that his party 'still had a tendency to warp and skip around the map at times', and he also criticized the pathfinding in the game. GameSpy said that the game's bugs are 'hard to forgive', and that these issues didn't occur in the first Knights of the Old Republic.
In a different article, GameSpy said that the game is incomplete, and attributed this to its rushed deadline.GameSpy called Kreia the best video game character of 2005, saying that she was 'easily the most intriguing, complicated, enigmatic, well-designed and nuanced character in a video game this year'. In 2010, the game was included as one of the titles in the book. References Footnotes. ^ Kasavin, Greg (December 6, 2004). Retrieved June 13, 2015. ^. November 10, 2004.
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That awkward moment.Alrighty so, It's time we address the issue that either many folks already mentioned or have thought of. This of course would be that KOTOR 2 was by no exaggeration an unfinished game. I cannot think of a game that was more gutted than this game to reach its release date. You can easily find lists of all the cut content ranging from different planets, new plot points, VASTLY altering character arches (specifically when dealing with your romance option on who you did or did not pick) and so much more. Seriously though, if you are remotely interested it is worth checking out some of it. However, many people can point at games that also had lofty ambitions that they did not reach but KOTOR 2 is different in this case. The majority of the cut content are actually still in the files of the game.
There have been several 'Restoration mods' that have worked to restore these into the game with varying success(I do encourage you to download them if you have it on PC) Here is the dilemma: how should we deal with this? The answer is simple: whatever was on the disk AND PLAYABLE is counted.
I am not going to use any cut content as evidence to back up my claim during the following proceedings. Of course it should be known that if Obsidian was allowed to actually finish the game they wanted to, we would not be having this conversation at all as KOTOR 2 would be definitively better as opposed to the underdog that it is. Anyway though, let's kick it off! Also keep it mind there will be spoilers!Characters The Good: KOTOR 1 Clockwise from top left: Bastila, Canderous, Carth, Juhani, Zaalbar, T4-M4, Mission, HK-47, JoleeNow let's be fair both games have their share of great characters. I would argue for KOTOR 2 there are only 2 really interesting characters. Yes HK-47 is very funny but he's just a killer droid not much else. Canderous is a personal favorite but I just love listening to his stories and besides, he get a whole lot better in KOTOR 2.
No I would say the two best in KOTOR 1 are Juhani and Jolee. Both of them represent something very important to the evolution of not only Star Wars but games in general. Carth and Bastila aren't really worth discussing as they just aren't very interesting.
Carth is always go on on about trust and how he doesn't trust you and then Bastila is constantly scolding and lecturing you about the Dark side; it's exhausting. Coupled to that, the two of them supplant you really as the main character as their needs and goals become the driving force of the game, not yours. Also worth noting that Bastila's fall to the Dark side makes NO SENSE.Jolee though, is an extremely important character in my opinion as he is one of the first times in any Star Wars games that you come across a character who is disillusioned with the Jedi Order and the strict adherence to the 'Light Side.' It raises interesting questions as his choices then imply the fact that there is so much more to the Force than those two points of view and further accentuating that the Darkside is necessarily 'evil but a different point of view that gets twisted. The way of the Gray was a pretty novel idea, even now where most games with moral choices make you either a goody-two-shoes or a complete jerk. You're not evil like Darth Vader, you're a punk robbing people of lunch money. The idea of shades of gray are introduced by Jolee and then expanded upon the second game.Fun fact: actually did a fairly good job of contextualizing their Dark side or 'Way of the Closed Fist' much more as a 'standing on your own ' ideology that gets twisted.
Juhani is much more interesting as you talk to her more and more and go beyond her whole 'falling to the darkside' backstory. How she was born in poverty and how the Jedi brought her in and she describes falling in love with the, as they became her saviors and were seen as almost god like to her because of that. Juhani get even more important if you choose to be a woman. Juhani is a lesbian and over the course of your adventure will fall in love with you. She then feels torn because she to fight not only her guilt for falling in love as the Order says you can't love and that makes her confront her previous fall the darkside over and over again. The only part that ruins this is that her love for you can never be reciprocated.
Female Revan can only be with Carth. The only thing I don't like about this clip is the person modded Juhani to look more stereotypically 'beautiful.' I don't like it one bit as the mod seems to imply that there is something wrong with how Juhani looks but I'm probably just reading into it too much.
This is how she should look. Also, 'I will be your doom!'
The Good: KOTOR 2 From top left: Atton, Bao dur, Mandalore, Handmaiden,Kreia,Visas,T3-M4, Mira,HK-47, G0-T0. Disciple and Hanharr not shownKOTOR 2 on the other hand I would say at the very least three strong characters and at most six. Granted, they are not as 'important' in terms of the franchise as Jolee and Juhani but they bring a lot more in terms of character development which ultimately makes them more interesting to listen to and have in the party. These characters would be Atton, Mandalore, Bao Dur, Visas, Handmaiden(Brianna) and of course, Kreia ( who's going to have her own section, she's THAT good).
The others are a mixed bag, Hanharr is pretty interesting, especially his relationship with Mira but neither are all that much individually; G0-T0 is lame, interesting premise space gangster attempting to control things through economics but he's boring; Disciple is boring and HK-47 is still HK-47. Pazaak, Republic Senate rules anyone?I'm not going to go through each of their stories as that would take too long.
We can however look at their stories as a group. Each of these characters carry backstories, goals, desires, and weakness that range from more than, 'Hey, do my sidequest.' Atton's backstory of being a soldier for Revan and Malak and then turning into a torturer of prisoners, especially Jedi. His moment of the Force awakening in him as he killed the Jedi who did opened him to it and how he at first wanted to kill her out of hatred but in the end did it because he loved her. Powerful stuff and I'm really just skimming ONE conversation with Atton. Visas and her relationship with Darth Nihilus; being the last of kind, indoctrinated into the Dark side and trying to kill you and her relationship that develops with you. I mean, it makes a powerful statements on abusive relationships, the Force, the power of redemption, whatever you want.Okay, okay one more, Bao dur.
The strong silent type of the team and the only one to not call you 'Exile.' He's also the only one who shares with you the sin of Malachor V. It's clear that his respect for you is absolute and how his life has never been the same after that battle and how attempts to atone for his sins by helping the Telos Restoration project, essentially trying to do the opposite of what he did at Malachor V. 'Your command echoes still General, and I obey as I did at Malachor.' With Bao dur it as much if not more of what he doesn't say that speaks to the true complexities of his character but every now and then he opens up and man. We can do this with everything single of those characters that I just named for KOTOR 2 (and I easily could).
As I said, while Jolee and Juhani are very interesting and important characters, they're kinda it in terms of interesting in KOTOR 1. Everyone else get sort of wrapped up after their sidequest with the exception of those two. Carth and Bastila aren't really that interesting as they don't bring much to the table and actively get in the way of your story. KOTOR 2 is different in that while its characters aren't 'game changers' in terms of Jolee and Juhani but the characters have so many layers to their personalities that makes you want to learn more about them and as mentioned before the actually rewards you for it! Between bonuses to skills, bonuses to defense, resistances and perhaps the most important, training them to become Jedi to strengthen your team!Whew that was the good done and over with. This will probably be the longest section as now we just need the bad and Kreia.
Hopefully I can tie up those two in one post but Kreia might need her own. Sorry I had to cram a lot into a tiny amount of space, there are just so many characters between the two games. At least in next part we really have only four to really talk about. Alrighty see you folks in.
I honestly think the second game - with the restoration mods installed - is a far superior game. Get it on steam, download all the mods, and be amazed at how different it is from the release state of the game. It's such a damn shame that Obsidian was rushed so badly, if they had been given more time it could have been amazing.Interesting write-up, but I beg to differ on your opinion of Go-To, figuring out who he is and what his real objective is in the game is really damn cool. HK-47 also has more of a personality in the second game other than 'Kill all Meatbags!' , and like every other character (perhaps with the exception of Mira and T3), he has his own subplot, and with the restoration mod it has a fantastic finale.
I don't know, G0-T0 was just not interesting to talk to for me. I can certainly acknowledge the interest behind his story but it just didn't click with me. That and I never had him in my party as I liked the other characters more. Also, I wanted to just count what as playable out of the box without the mod and without the mod HK's story doesn't end up going anywhere. I agree with you though, the restoration mods are fantastic and offer a glimpse into what KOTOR2 could have been.stay strong brothahaha, same here. With all the removed content put back in, HK-47 is a hell of a character in 2. I remember walking away from his philosophical dissertations he just laid on me and was shocked at this killer robot laying the smack down on ideals and concepts.
He's less overtly funny in 2, but makes up for it in a ton of other ways. Too bad the base game didn't get it all in (not to mention the whole solo mission to take care of the HK line).
I wub you KOTOR 2, even if you are a massive mess without all these mods and patches. I haven't tried going back to Kotor 2 really since playing it originally, but I have tried Kotor 1, and that game does not hold up for me.
For one, the good/evil options are so much less nuanced than in more recent RPGs. Both Kotor and Jade Empire played lip-service to a morality that was more than nice vs. Jerk, but in both cases the easiest way to be evil was to extort money from people. The second thing is the sound design: it's just so sparse. Hardly any music at all, and what's there is mostly just ambient and unmemorable. The graphics and combat system aren't exactly winners either, but they're easier for me to overlook given the context that it is an older game.Judging them by my reactions at the time, though, I thought Kotor 2 was the better game most of the way, but the ending was complete nonsense, like the original ending of ME3 times ten.
My expectations for storytelling in games back then was much lower, however. I haven't tried going back to Kotor 2 really since playing it originally, but I have tried Kotor 1, and that game does not hold up for me. For one, the good/evil options are so much less nuanced than in more recent RPGs.I do enjoy how much both games differ on this single design issue. 1's moral choices are either saintly or cartoonishly evil, and 2's moral choices often just end with Kreia berating you no matter what choice you make. I remember first playing 2 and just re-loading over and over to see Kreia's reactions to stuff, because her entire MO is to just be a bitchy old crone about whatever you do, usually only praising you for total inaction. : I'll let others do all the more in-depth of why Kreia is this beloved kind of character, but at least for me it's the pure philosophical difference that she brings to the Star Wars universe. In all of the films and expanded universe, there just isn't a character that brings the observations of both sides to the table quite like Kreia, and than disputes them.
Jolee Bindo would be my close second.I do remember one cool moment with Kreia where on Dantooine (I think it's when you come out of some cave from a quest) and you're confronted with some bad guys. It's a pretty usual circumstance where if you go light side, she bitches you out. Go dark side, she tells you to go get fucked. But pick the option that circumvents the usual and you end manipulating both factions to your bidding and she applauds you and praises you. That Kreia, she likes to talk and berate and everything, but she is a teacher at heart. Go with options that are more in the middle, or manipulative, or don't conform and she sees you as a student that gets it.
Any means necessary without conforming to one moral philosophy or the other. I really like Kreia.
Even if she tells me to fuck off a lot. : While she may have been a bitchy old crone, she always had some sort of lesson in mind. One of my favorite Kreia moments by far is when she berates you for being friendly to Visas, telling you to think of your companions as tools and nothing more, to which you can then reply 'Then I will think of you as a tool as well.' She then says something along the lines of 'And now you are truly learning.' I don't think I've ever seen another companion in a game that was so well defined and focused on their own agenda. She truly is one of the best written characters I have ever seen in a video game, and maybe even fiction in general. I'm having a hard time thinking of another character that holds up so well after 5+ playthroughs.
I make it a point to play through this game every couple of years, and every time I do I notice some new foreshadowing of her motivations or nuance to her philosophy. And the restoration mod adds even more! Brb, got to reinstall this. All it took was seeing Atton's smug face and now I've got 'PURE PAAZAAAAK' stuck in my head again.Thanks a lot.EDIT: and how does Bastila's fall to the Dark Side not make sense? It was heavily foreshadowed from the beginning. She's a prideful, jealous young woman who is carrying a whole hell of a lot of weight and stress.
She's also arrogant, most likely due to the special treatment she's received as a result of her unique gifts in the Force. She's also got bottled up resentment and anger over her past. Not to mention she was tortured by Malak for God knows how long.No really, I want to see someone try and tell me that Bastila's fall didn't make sense.
Awesome comments folks. Good to see some people engaging in dialogue about games that are now over ten years old.I agree, the restoration mods bring a lot of new life to the game.
Kotor 2 Handmaiden Dark Side Of Hair
Granted the people can only do so much with what they have available. Man, everytime I think about it, I just wish Obsidian could have finished!I definitely agree with your feelings on moral choice. To be honest this problem still plagues games to this day but it seems even more apparent in the KOTOR series.
Kotor 2 Handmaiden Sith
Instead of feeling like a powerful Sith, I just felt like a jerk. I mean can anyone really imagine Darth Vader shaking down people for the change? According to these games he'd be all over that.Thanks man, I'm trying to improve these each time so they are a littler easier to digest but sometimes my excitement gets away from me and I write a little too much.
Also, she's not that bad.I do hope moral choices can become more nuanced as we progress. Star Wars does and at the same time doesn't seem like the series to do it though. It does because of the nature of it implies choice but at the same time it really only implies 2 choices when you get down to it. As for Kreia, she's just chock-full of good lines. In my more recent playthroughs though I never hear the majority of them as I always feel too guilty using her as she is a monster in the stats department.I know exactly the moment you're talking man. I remember be surprised the second time I played that scenario and chose the opposite answer and she still yelled at me for it.
It really made me start thinking about Kreia and what she signifies not only during your story but how her ideology fits into Star Wars. Jolee did it a similar way but it was much more with his own choices rather than yours and so in that way Kreia was a lot more impactful.Keep the dream alive brotha! If I can get even one person to replay or pick one these (preferably both!) games up, it makes this all the more worthwhile.
Thanks for that man. Also fantastic choice of quote there; man, she does have so many good ones. I can't say that I have your love for Kotor2, but I enjoy your enthusiasm.:-PI guess my thing is that Kotor was a complete game. I'm sure someone will smack me for falling back on this old 'critic crutch,' but Kotor had polish. Lots and lots of polish. The plotline was coherent, the framerate was stable, the level design was nuanced and avoided repetition, etc.
One of my favorite 'polish' touches was how the Jedi robes were tweaked to have more of an Indian vibe to their aesthetic (such as the cloth that drapes around your hips). Which frankly worked pretty well. It reminded you that you weren't in the same time period as the original trilogy and compensated for how poorly the Xbox could render moving cloth. Design decisions like that made me smile, and all the references to the original trilogy and first prequel film just further emphasized how much Bioware cared about both its product and the source material. Aside from the endlessly respawning enemies on the Starforge that were thrown in to create an openly contrived late-game difficulty curve, I have no complaints.Kotor2 had absolutely none of the positive traits detailed above. It added graphical effects that bogged down the framerate repeatedly.
Level design was often awful and highly repetitive, reusing assets and entire layouts with alarming frequency. The story was a broken disaster that fell apart in the last third of the game, warping you from location to location with nary a drop of lucid expository dialogue (Bao-Dur died? Oh, off screen in a cutscene you had to remove? Obsidian also made art changes that were often poorly informed, such as. Yes, the robes. You knew I was looping back to it. I mean, come on.
Look at the rant in the previous paragraph.ahem. The robes moved like wet planks of plywood and were inconsistent with the first game's art style. Well, it sucked.Oh, and I'd like to make special mention of the reputation system in Kotor2, which I found absolutely repugnant from a roleplaying perspective. It was a statistical brown-nosing system in which my character had to say the right things to the right people, no matter how tonally inconsistent such things were with my prior dialogue choices. The alternative was to suffer numerical penalties for actually roleplaying.
I mean, I guess you could say that I was roleplaying a manipulative wonder-weasel, but that's not really what I signed up for.By comparison, you could speak your mind in Kotor and, over time, potentially sway people into your way of thinking. In Kotor2, dialogue options only open up if you have X amount of points; thus, you can literally roleplay yourself into conversational dead ends.I don't see any merit in Kotor2, and I have never bought the time excuses that aficionados bandy about like shields. Obsidian was hired to make an expansion to an established game. The graphics engine was done. A significant amount of pre-existing art assets existed.
The entire gameplay system was complete. They had to make. An expansion pack, really. I'm pretty sure they had two years to do this with access to advice from Bioware staff who built the prior game, and you know what. Obsidian failed at it.
They made a game too big for the time frame they were given, cut so much out that they virtually gutted their own product, and then sold it at full price to consumers. That's failure. Sure, it's failure born from ambition and a desire to create something grand in scope, which is almost romantic.
But it's still failure. They knew their time frame, and they were almost all experienced developers with years of game design under their belts.
They have no excuses. No good ones. Oh, and they followed up this expansion pack fiasco by taking over another Bioware franchise with a pre-existing engine, gameplay system, and art assets, which they then also messed up with the mediocre Neverwinter Nights 2. The excuse that time?
Hasbro rushed them, because it's always the publisher's fault for not being more patient, right?:-/I'll end on a positive note: I was glad that Kotor2 at least made non-Jedi party members useful. I never used my blaster toting chums after I got to Dantooine in Kotor, if only because I couldn't justify gimping my party to hear Mission Vao marvel at Kashyyyk. That wasn't as much of an issue in Kotor2, so there's that going for it. Oh, and the staff at Obsidian seem to have hit a decent stride nowadays.
I mean, Fallout: New Vegas was pretty good and South Park: The Stick of Truth worked quite well. Not going to mention Alpha Protocol. That'd just be rude. :Ah, that felt good. I forgot how much Kotor2 grated me until just now. I did like the handmaiden though.
She was kind of interesting, and didn't exist to contradict and criticize me repeatedly like Kreia did.Oh, and I have to give the Obsidian writers credit for helping me truly grasp the full meaning of apathy. There is a scene where Kreia asks you if you should help someone or not. She proceeds to rant at length about how helping this person will lead to them being mugged and killed, while not helping them will leave them to starve and die. I think it's intended to make you realize that 'every action has a consequence.' However, I quickly realized that what she was really saying was that she would find a way to disapprove of me no matter what I did. I utterly stopped caring about what she said from this point on, to the point of where I remember almost none of it.I say almost none because she later warned me not to have sex with the handmaiden since, and I'm utterly serious about this, 'a child born from your union would be an abomination.' You do realize that sex can be done for pleasure and not procreation, right?
Is there no birth control in the future-past?Oh, and later on she told me the future. I actually tuned all that stuff out too, but I found it amusingly out of place in the Star Wars universe and also an incredibly cheap way to end a game.
No time for cutscenes or even an end-game cinematic done with the game engine? Ha, no worries! Force one of the voice actors to read five minutes of dialogue and have the player stare at a polygonal face in disbelief. Then, fade to a starship warping off into space. We've done it lads. Now to end Neverwinter Nights 2 with a few still frames of concept art and some script reading from a man pulled off the street.
We'll give 'em closure! I remember finding KotOR 2's obvious swathes of cut content (on top of being buggy as hell) to be super disappointing to my young self. The ending alone. Hey, your ship crashed and I guess your companions managed to get out okay? Not going to bother telling me? That remote sequence? Bleh.I can appreciate it from a distance now, restored content and fewer bugs help.
I just think the entire thing is misleading being called a sequel to Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic. I have other misgivings, like the reasoning behind the Player Character's quest to find the Jedi masters and some of the character motivations, but I'll spare everyone a lot of half-remembered distaste.What I will say is that KotOR 2 does have some decent companions. I always thought Bao Dur's sleepy voice was a bit of a downer, and Disciple struck me as an exceptionally boring Boy Scout of a fellow, but Hanharr the psychotic Wookiee who clings to the idea of life debt even though he wants to murder you is pretty great. A lot of great HK 47 moments too, especially when you have him make fun of Carth and Bastila by asking about Revan's companions. That is great. Kotor 2 is fucking rad. The backstories of Atton and Hanharr are incredible.
The whole game rams home how weak and incapable the Jedi are without the force and how their altruistic notions of right and wrong are incongruous with the realities of that world. It had a gritty and unforgiving atmosphere that unlike anything else in that franchise. Nothing in Star Wars is as bleak and ambiguous as Kotor 2.Kotor 1 is admittedly a finished product and it's sensational, but Kotor 2 is by far the more interesting game.
Obsidian were always better writers than BioWare and their interpretation of that universe is the one I'd rather spend my time in, bugs and cut-content included. By the way, you accidentally typed KOTOR 2 instead of one in your first paragraph of The Good: KOTOR 1. Not a big deal, but I thought you were claiming KotOR II only had two good characters for a second.One of the most disappointing things about SW:TOR was how they made Revan a male and the Outcast female (and hinted at her being a romantic partner of Revan). I mean, it's all moot now with Disney's recent cannon changes, and Star Wars lore has been more about 'fannon' than cannon for a while now, but I really think they missed a chance for Revan to be a powerful female Jedi persona in the Star Wars universe. There's not a lot of those in the popular fiction, and they mostly exist as love interests for other characters.Of course, I'd prefer if they didn't choose and left it up to each individual player, but what the fuck are you going to do?
Some ass always comes by with a cannon choice. They even did it to Dragon Age.Slightly off topic, and man is it hard to type all this on a phone, but I consider KotOR 2 part of the trilogy of great Black Isle / Obsidian mind benders, along with Planescape: Torment and NWN 2: Mask of the Betrayer. It's easily the most approachable of the three. : Don't want to get into an argument here, but it seems to me that we played very different versions of KOTOR 1. While it was an incredible game that really set the tone for the Bioware games of today, it was also a buggy mess.
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Remember the the Star Droid glitch? How about all of those corrupted save issues that required you to create new save files constantly so that you could roll back to an earlier area if you did something wrong, such as leaving an area while in combat? While I can understand how one would be dissapointed by how unfinished 2 was, I think its incredibly unfair to completely throw it under the bus like this. Obsidian had 1 year and 5 months from the release of KOTOR 1 to make it, and it stands to reason that their QA time was cut short so it could be released in time for christmas.
Maybe you should try out the restored content mod? It really helps explain all of those holes left in the original game, and it also seems to be a much more stable experience than either of the KOTOR games were at launch.Either way, at least we can all agree that KOTOR 1 was incredible right?:D If it wasn't for that I would have never tried out Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, Neverwinter Nights, Fallout, etc. You've gotta give Microsoft props for promoting it on the XBOX. I'm sure it introduced many people to the wonderful world of CRPGs. It doesn't make sense because those traits are seen in characters other than Bastila.
I would definitely use MAster Vrook as an example of this as he is an arrogant jerk to you the entire time. One could say that he is only acting that way because he knows you're Revan but in KOTOR 2 you save and he acts the same way. A character exhibiting some character traits that seem like 'less than ideal qualities' such as stubbornness is poor foreshadowing in my opinion. Now if they had Bastila actually consider doing something that could lead her down to the Dark Side that would be one thing but she never does.As far as 'a lot of stress' I don't see how that doesn't apply to the rest of the crew as all of them are going through the same thing that she is with the exception that she is the only one who knows that you're Revan but other than that she shows no signs of breaking under the pressure of it the entire game. Even when she is tortured on the Leviathan she is steadfast in her beliefs. There is one line though where she admits(if you are male) for a moment that she wanted you to talk so that the pain would stop.
I suppose you could use that as evidence but still that's really the only thing aside from the facts that she's a little standoffish at first but she drops that after the first planet.I will agree with you in some aspects ( I actually did prefer the robes in KOTOR 1as well) but still, to label KOTOR 2 as an expansion pack is ridiculous. That is an unfair assessment of the game and frankly extremely minimalistic to everything KOTOR 2 brought to the table. Bear in mind that your main complaint of it being unfinished was directly addressed by me in the first paragraph. The robe issue is purely an aesthetic choice and really subjective.
I had friends who prefered the robes in KOTOR 2 because they looked more like actual Jedi robes. I mean, you can't really say that it would have taken the Jedis thousands of years just to start wearing different robes.Furthermore, the influence system is purely optional, if you do not want to take part it in thats fine. Yes some characters require you to be very nice with them but that because they were designed to be played with a Light side character where everything you say is the 'nice thing.' To cherry pick that detail without mentioning the whole truth is a little unfair. There are several character who love when you do the darkside option and Hanharr actually prefers it when you treat him like garbage.
Also, many of the influence choices are more of the character responding to your actions not to you 'brown nosing them.' Bao dur for example compliments you on helping that mechanic on Dantooine and that gets the influence.
Also the 'numerical penalties' is a farce. The game in no way penalizes you for not doing any influence options, I don't know where you got that but it is simply untrue. The game only rewards you for it, it never takes anything away.As for KOTOR 1's 'swaying peoples' way of thinking,' that existed in KOTOR 2 as well. It was called 'Persuade' and 'Force Persuade' just like it was in KOTOR 1. As mentioned in part one, you didn't even have to persuade in KOTOR 2 in some cases you could use your knowledge of Demolitions, Computer use, or your awareness to convince people of something.As I said and acknowledged, yes KOTOR 2 is an unfinished game. Does Obsidian share the blame in that?
Of course they do but not all of it. KOTOR 1 came out in 2003 and KOTOR 2 came out in 2005 and you know that time had to encompasses a whole lot more than the actual creation of the game between things like QA and the like. A failure would've been not releasing anything or releasing it in an unplayable form and the people here who came to discuss it can wholeheartedly confirm that they played the game and many of them enjoyed it.
Does not sound like a failure to me in the slightest.Look, I get it, you don't like KOTOR 2. That's fine and it is good that we can have these conversations but at the same time it is necessary for me to point out where you a clearly minimizing KOTOR 2 in your arguments. I'm guessing you were a big fan of the first one and then let down by KOTOR 2.
If that's true I understand completely.It's fine to not like it. It's fine for you to hate it but at the same time that does not mean that everyone has to agree with you. My purpose is for people to take second look at the black sheep of this family and show it does deserve praise despite its shortcomings.Great point man. Jolee set up the point and then Kreia hit it out of the parkI will agree that some of those Malachor V segments are are a little jarring. Scratch that, they are jarring. We will discuss them in the story section where they do make sense in context but it isn't immediately apparent.Bao dur is a little sleepy I will admit, I always just took that as part of his personality and rolled with itExcellent point man. KOTOR 2 shatters the idea of Jedi's being these infallible invincible beings.
I remember first listening to Atton and being very cynical about him saying that he killed Jedi. Then he started going into detail and I was like, 'Oh man, between him and HK, they have a point.' I think despite where we stand on this, we all can find common ground in that that Kreia destroys Carth.